celiac/oxalates

[Anonymous]

does any one know of a connection between undiagnosed celiac and damage to the gut resulting in oxalate formation and damage?

http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/oxalates/oxal-test.pdf

http://www.developmentalspectrums.com/low_oxalate/a_compilation_of_advice_for_using_the_low_oxalate_diet_for_autism.html

http://patienteducation.upmc.com/Pdf/LowOxalateDiet.pdf

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48

http://www.vulvarpainfoundation.org/vpfabout.htm

[Anonymous]

i’m a little confused about what you are asking. oxalates are a natural forming substance, so i’m not sure why you are wondering if damage to the gut would result in oxalate formation.

i have never heard of any connection between celiac and oxalates—but i have heard they can cause gout.

i scanned through your links and was interested in seeing that they felt there was a connection with oxalates and fibromyalgia. i’m getting ready to start trying some “alternative” things to see if i can feel better—-but only if i can find someone to work with me who is not too “way out there”. if they told my i had to drop my pharmaceuticals immediately to try their naturals, i would turn around and walk away. i’d like to make this a gradual process if i can find something that would actually help.

[Anonymous]

Christine – just curious, are you gluten free yourself? I know of some people with fibromyalgia who do quite well after adopting a completely gluten and casein free diet. I’ll try to find some info on that and post links here if I can.

For the most part, I am gluten and casein free along with my son Ben (makes cooking a lot easier) and I find my knees and hips ache horribly if I have a couple gluten and/or casein infractions. I’ve suspected for awhile now that I have some sort of autoimmune, inflammatory related illness (arthritis? or fibromyalgia?) and I know that I really feel worse after eating gluten or casein.

MFPIx22008-04-03 23:52:39

[Anonymous]

i’m not totally gluten free. we cook all of our meals gluten free, but i do eat other gluten-containing foods. our ped gi told me once that going gluten free might help my fibro.

i’d love to see the links if you find them.

[Anonymous]

i am unsure of the connection but it’s the OVERGROWTH of oxalates that becomes a problem. something to do with yeast overgrowth, distribution via leaky gut/IBS disorders that cause the crystals to tear the intestinal tract…as you can see i am not sure… but the symptoms of oxalate overproduction are present in my child and so i am searching for possible causation and correlating factors…

i don’t know if either of you have tried knox nutra joint with gelatine, glucosamine and chondrointin but it has helped me in ways i cannot express with that same kind of arthitic aching and problems with my joints. i received the suggestion from a pain management physician anesthesiologist a few years back and now my whole family takes it. i have a friend with RA/possibly lupus who also takes it for relief as well. it does take the max 4 capsule dose a few weeks to begin to show it’s work. best of luck to both of you.

[Anonymous]

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/0L38R9uCTrKNJ_ehsI6rYr7_XYAD6HRX8XIzDsQby-vgrCS2Km-3jMxydiIsxJZjMiyVzu11TiIOTMdghsnPfDVEvcKkAXo0__0/A%20resource%20for%20beginners/Mechanisms%20Behind%20the%20Leaky%20Gut.doc

[Anonymous]

we also are dealing with oxlates issues. My dd is taking magnesium and vitamin k2 and a probiotic called VSL#3, which has lactic acid bacteria that supossedly breaks down the oxalates. I have seen imporvements, but still a problem. My dd is also gluten/wheat free.

if you found something that really helps, please share.

Leo

[Anonymous]

Hi Leo,

I am still wandering around these shark infested waters like everyone else but I will share this in the hopes that it will help in some way…

this is something i received from a member of the vitamink yahoo group while posting a message to the trying_low_oxalates yahoo group. Also I recommend joining the two yahoo groups above and a paper provided called mechanisms behind the leaky gut by researcher Susan Owens on the trying_low_oxalates yahoo group site or accessible via my link above. search for great plains lab and oxalates article or for Susan Owens and oxalates to find general oxalate information. anyone who wishes can directly email me at [email protected] or maybe it would be better to post this in the infant reflux site-not sure since it is targetted for reflux although these issues seem to accompany problems that are gastro/allergy/reflux related? at any rate this is the email i received 4/9/8:

I assume your DAN! has suggested LOD to try to calm down the sensory issues and hyperactivity? Both may be because of disregulated calcium in the nervous system. The LOD will not solve problems because the majority of oxalate problems are not primarily due to dietary intake, but to the body’s own inappropriate synthesis of oxalic acid in the liver. The liver overproduced oxalic acid because of deficiencies of essential nutrients, and possibly hypothyroidism. The LOD does little or nothing to attempt to fix these underlying causes.

Have you ever heard of the Vitamin K protocol, developed by Catherine Tamoro ([email protected])? Catherine believes that some autistic behaviors – aggressiveness and increased sensory and “psychiatric” issues which you are also seeing in your son, are in part be a result of unregulated calcium in the brain and nervous system. Calcium is “chaperoned” by special proteins called osteocalcins around the body. These proteins essentially “tell calcium where to go.” In the brain, the inflow of calcium into neurons in very tightly controlled, a process in which the osteocalcins almost certainly play a role. This process of calcium inflow is also affected by glutamate (glutamate essentially “holds open” the calcium gates on neurons, which normally only open and close for fractions of a second). This may explain why many ASD kids have issues with glutamate (and indeed, why plenty of people in general have reactions to MSG). I don’t like to use the word psychiatric in the context of autism generally because for so long autism was considered “just” a psychiatric/psychological illness – but here it seems appropriate. Indeed, perhaps unregulated calcium is a problem with non-autism-related psychiatric illnesses as well. I have attached Catherine’s paper which speculates that Vitamin K deficiency may be in part a cause of some symptoms of autism.

These osteocalcins are dependent on Vitamin K for their function, or more accurately, on a form of it called K2, which is normally produced by specialized gut bacteria from K. The K protocol manages calcium by supplementing K2 directly in very small amounts. This also helps regulate oxalates because unregulated calcium (not “chaperoned” by the osteocalcins) may be a factor in the leaky gut, inappropriately opening the “tight junctions” that Susan refers to in her paper Mechanisms Behind the Leaky Gut.

Susan has apparently badmouthed both the K protocol and Tamoro on the ABMD list, as well as some other parents who’s kids had problems with LOD in the past. She doesn’t seem to do that anymore, but her “non-response” to Deborah the other day whose son was having painful urination (to say the least) was telling. The cause of her son’s pain was almost certainly an oxalate dump, which essentially involves peeing out calcium oxalate crystals, which are basically small kidney stones. Vitamin K2 can also “pull apart” calcium oxalate crystals (in essence it “chelates” the calcium out of the crystal), and then helps to properly manage the calcium and directs it where it needs to go, which is mainly into the bones and teeth.

Susan did not directly answer Deborah’s question about her son’s pain, other than to point out sulfate and bicarbonate issues and possible pH issues. Her suggestions were probably good – sulfates and bicarbonate share common “transport proteins” with oxalates, and by increasing sulfate and bicarb levels in the body, in will encourage getting oxalates out of the cells (although the next step is to get them out of the body all together). The pH issues is important as it may affect the inappropriate over-production of oxalic acid (which contains oxalate) by the liver. Bicarbonate will also help address the pH (acidity) issues if they exist, as bicarbonate is part of the body’s “buffer” to help it maintain proper blood and body pH. But she did not address the main issue of pain, which is the very probable calcium oxalate crystals in the urine, or how to properly deal with them, as the LOD cannot deal with them because it does nothing about oxalates (or oxalate compounds such as calcium oxalates) that are already IN the body.

She has NO RIGHT to tell you as a parent to “just keep going” with a protocol that causes so much pain and harm. She does not have a child on the spectrum. Catherine does, and that is why she developed the K Protocol, and why she has reviewed over *600* articles in preparation for write the final paper describing her protocol, which she expects to have finished this summer.

I’m not a parent of an ASD child either, but am almost certain I have Asperger’s syndrome to some degree. I have been learning a LOT about the various protocols and metabolic problems that occur in ASD and how the protocols correct them. Maria ([email protected]>) is the moderator of the Indiana Biomedical list and has two children on the spectrum and can tell you a LOT more about the problems with the LOD that both her own child had while on it, as well as experiences of other parents. Catherine can give you answers to detailed questions on the protocol itself, and on WHY it works.

As I said above, the vitamin K protocol effectively deals with both oxalate problems, as well as proper calcium regulation in the body, which is at least as important as proper oxalate handling. It actually fixes the underlying problems with metabolism rather than simply cover up the symptoms, as the LOD does. Vitamin K may actually be *depleted* by the LOD, because foods that are high in oxalates are *also* high in K (interesting, as K helps deal with oxalates). K depletion may in turn contribute (among other things) to overproduction of oxalic acid by the liver, which only makes the oxalate problem worse. Vitamin K is also important in blood clotting, which is why nosebleeds often accompany oxalate dumps.

Sulfur issues may also arise from the same issues that cause inappropriate calcium and oxalate handling (EVERYTHING is connected in autism it seems!). This email from the Maria explains the connection between vitamin deficiency, phenol sensitivity, sulfur, oxalates, and PST (phenol-sulfer transferase) problems:

Phenols, Oxalates, PST, sulfur

There is a connection for our kids between Phenols/Salicylates, Oxalates, PST, and sulfur. It starts when our kids become toxic/viral and their B6 and Zinc levels drop with other nutrients. This affects the liver and kidneys as they are part of our detox system. The kidneys drop body salts they should hold (salt, bicarbonate, potassium ..) and hold oxalates. Oxalic acid if unimpeded [unbound to calcium or other things] can flush toxins from the body. The liver starts to produce oxalic acid in response to the B6 and Zinc drop. Among all of these changes the sulfation pathways get blocked and one can develop phenol/salicylate sensitivity since they get processed through these pathways. Our kids can also show symptoms of artificially induced PST problems. [artificial as opposed to genetic.]

With insufficient phenol sulfur-transferase (PST), individuals have an extremely low capacity to oxidize sulfur compounds. Children with this enzyme deficiency are unable to fully metabolize certain foods and chemicals that contain phenols/salicylates and amines. PST is necessary to break down hormones, some food components and toxic chemicals that we encounter daily. If the enzyme is deficient, the body cannot detoxify the system – that is, it will be unable to render these substances harmless.

If this happens, harmful substances that should be metabolized (broken down) would build up to abnormal levels. These substances include serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline. [Noradrenaline, or norepinephrine, a brain neurotransmitter very similar to adrenaline, the fight-or-flight response stress hormone] Many metabolic processes can be disturbed by phenolic compounds and cause many physical problems that may not have been previously thought connected to autism (excessive thirst, night sweating, facial flushing, reddened ears etc.)

Since oxalic acid levels are also raised along with this artificial PST insufficiency, this is how phenol/salicylate issues started to become indicative of oxalate issues, and the OAT test would show it (high oxalate, high phenol, and high salicylate). They have the same causation so where there is one there may be the other. For some kids B6, Zinc, Omega 6 will be enough to correct phenol issues, sulfation pathway issues, *and* oxalate issues. For others we need to support and correct these problems with added supplementation and protocols. It was also natural to first assume a LOD may help but trials and research has shown it can cause more damage than it solves.

My youngest who had a noticeable phenol/salicylate intolerance also had a worse oxalate problem and had to go through oxalate detox. [Maria can tell you more about this and the problems of oxalate dumping, both from personal experience and talking with parents of kids who were on the LOD] My oldest who developed no such sensitivity had very little oxalate detox although there was some. I felt oxalate detox too as I started the K protocol.

The K protocol also has a *short* period of “oxalate detox” when it is started as oxalate crystals are broken up and oxalic acid is liberated. This period can be managed effectively by starting with a very low level of supplemental K2, and increasing it only very slowly. This is explained more below.

To effectively deal with oxalate crystals, you have to not only deal with the *oxalate* part, but also the calcium part of the calcium oxalate crystals which form the bulk of the problematic oxalate crystals (although oxalate can and does bind to other toxins, and indeed may be part of the body’s detoxification system). In addition to dietary intake of oxalates, part if not most oxalate is produced in the form of oxalic acid by the liver, in response to nutrient deficiencies, especially of zinc and B6, and probably vitamin K as well. The LOD does little to address the calcium, and nothing specifically to address the lack of vitamin K.

The Vitamin K protocol was developed to address calcium disregulation through use of vitamin K. Because oxalate likes to bind to calcium and form calcium-oxalate crystals (kidney stones), the protocol also helps with oxalate issues. Calcium regulation is very important not only in oxalate handling, but other things including proper bone and tooth development and nervous system function.

Calcium regulation is normally handled not by vitamin K itself (which is found in foods and multivitamins), but by a form of the vitamin called K2. K is normally converted into K2 by certain gut bacteria, but these are almost always missing in Spectrum kids with oxalate problems (and possibly spectrum kids without oxalate problems). Vitamins K and K2 are important in a great number of things in the body as well besides proper regulation of calcium including immune function and blood sugar regulation, and is a very powerful anti-oxidant – more powerful than either vitamin E or “coenzyme Q-10”. Undoubtedly, K and K2 have other functions which have not yet been discovered.

We know about 15 of the special osteocalcin proteins specifically, and there are estimated to be over 100 beyond these few that are known. As I said above, these proteins (with the help of K2) direct calcium to where it usually goes, which is into the bones and teeth, and keeps it away from the arteries and other soft tissues of the body where it is not needed. Thus deficiency of K2 can cause problems – even for NTs – including hardening of the arteries. By pulling apart calcium-oxalate crystals, K2 is able to free the calcium and then directs it to proper storage in the bones and teeth. As mentioned before vitamin K2 deficiency is made worse by the LOD because food that are high in oxalate are *also high in vitamin K* (perhaps a sort of “protection mechanism” – I believe that vitamin K is used by the plants and other foods high in oxalate to allow *them* or properly regulate oxalate).

One of it’s outcomes of the K protocol is the same thing the LOD *tries* to do – to detoxify the body of inappropriately bound oxalates (or more accurately, to allow the body to detoxify itself). It also aims to keep oxalates IN the gut rather than OUT. Catherine’s hypothesis is that the basis of the body’s overproduction of oxalic acid by the liver which is caused by deficiencies in certain vitamins – specifically zinc and B6, and possible K2 itself, and that hypothyroidism may be a cause in some cases as well. Catherine believes the hypothyroidism is due to a faulty iodine “transporter protein”, and the protocol treats it with supplemental iodine (Tri-Quench). She has found what she believes is the faulty transporter, and is currently setting up a study with two university researchers to study the issue, as well as to test her son to see if he has the transporter mutation she thinks he does.

According to Catherine’s hypothesis, the oxalates get OUT of the gut in the first place because of malfunction oxalate exchanger proteins, which are essentially “stuck open”. (This doesn’t rule out the “leaky gut” hypothesis – indeed unmanaged calcium may to be a factor in the leaky gut). The malfunctioning of the oxalate exchangers is caused by a bicarbonate imbalance in the body, which affects the body’s pH balance. The active form K2 is required for the proper handling of oxalates and calcium in the gut as well as calcium regulation outside the gut – outside it pulls apart calcium-oxalate crystals, allowing the calcium to then be absorbed and shuttled off to wherever it needs to go. Most DAN! don’t know about K2, but only plain vitamin K.

The Vitamin K protocol doesn’t have any of the painful “oxalate dump” issues that the LOD does, although it can cause “oxalic acid diarrhea” at the beginning if there a large amount of oxalic acid to be gotten rid of. Thus K2 supplementation is started very slowly to minimize this. Maria can tell you MUCH more about this. The oxalates that are stored inappropriately in the body are slowly degraded by K2 and the body’s immune system and flushed out. At the same time the imbalances that are causing oxalate to be overproduced in the first place and dietary oxalates to escape the gut inappropriately are dealt with, the calcium re-regulation induced by vitamin K2 supplementation allows the body to free the calcium from some stored calcium-oxalate crystals and use the calcium, and flush the oxalate away (or recycle it). The upshot is that the PST issues mentioned above, is that they may be simply due to a lack of nutrients and closed sulfation pathways, rather than being genetic. The K protocol can help correct all this, while the LOD does nothing to correct the underlying imbalances which led to the problems in the first place. Zinc, B6, and magnesium are three of the bases of ANY good biomed program, and it may not be coincidental that their supplementation will correct so many different problems in spectrum kids.

Many kids who *do* get better on the LOD may be getting better simply because of restoration of depleted basic nutrients, and not because of any effect of the LOD itself. There is no way to tell – but the LOD will not do anything to “hasten” this process, whereas the K-protocol will. In my opinion, the LOD is essentially just a “band-aid” which covers up (some) symptoms of oxalate problems, but creates others and can absolutely wreak havoc as the gut calls for oxalates which it needs, which causes the painful oxalate dumping (Maria refers to this as torture rather than oxalate dumping, and after reading your description as well as others on the TLO list, I agree) Oxalate crystals also apparently wreaks havoc *in* the gut when the oxalates finally get there. And once they get there (presumably because the gut senses it needs oxalates to help deal with calcium) – they are still bound in crystal form, and can’t easily be unbound without K2, which of course the body doesn’t have!

The K protocol uses small amounts (VERY small amounts – like 1 drop per day) of Thorne K2 to help manage calcium. At the same time, probiotic support with VLS#3 and/or Super Pro Bio 75 contain the special gut bacteria which can degrade oxalates (a couple kinds of bacteria other than oxalobacter can also degrade oxalates). When the Oxthera probiotic becomes available, it will be of great help as well. Bicarbonate helps to normalize the acidity of the blood (bicarbonate is part of the body’s natural blood pH “buffer”). Salt is added to the protocol to correct “metabolic acidosis” and to correct imbalances in the kidneys. Because oral bicarbonate will interfere with iodine uptake and transportation in the body, supplemental iodine is added. Tri-Quench is generally used for this, but other iodine products will work – EXCEPT that “elemental iodine” as found in Lugol’s solution or Iodoral will not work. This is an email from Catherine that explains this:

Tri-Quench, by Scientific Botanicals, is a super-saturated potassium iodide solution. Iodide is the form which the thyroid takes up to form thyroid hormones. The reason I knew about it is that Dr. Jonathan Wright is enthusiastic about it and writes about it frequently. Dr. Wright, as well as many other doctors, discusses the importance of iodine in maintaining healthy breast tissue, and he uses Tri-Quench to cure bladder infections. One place to purchase it on-line is http://www.tahomadispensary.com – look under minerals.

Lugol’s Solution is a combination of potassium iodide and elemental iodine. Iodoral Tablets also contain a combination of potassium iodide and elemental iodine. The “iodine doctors” (Dr. David Brownstein being probably the most prominent) use Lugol’s Solution or Iodoral instead, but it became apparent pretty quickly that Lugol’s was causing problems for some of the children; I dug around in PubMed and eventually found the following paper, which explained the problem.

“Evidence of thyroxine formation following iodine administration in Sprague-Dawley rats.”
Thrall KD, Sauer RL, Bull RJ.

(Pharmacology/Toxicology Graduate Program, College of Pharmacy, Washington State University, Pullman.)

J Toxicol Environ Health. 1992 Dec;37(4):535-48.

PMID: 1464908

The children all seem to be doing fine with potassium iodide although the correct dose is still an open question. Dr. Brownstein recommends an initial dose of about 50 mg/day for an adult, with the goal being to replenish the body’s iodide stores. Then he has the adults cut back to about 12 mg/day. I think the kids might have a problem transporting iodide into they thyroid, and if that’s true then the iodide dosing needs to be on the high side. My thought is the kids should be getting 1 to 3 drops full-strength Tri-Quench daily, but if you are nervous about that much iodide then dilute the dose down, which you can do easily with an empty dropper bottle. Muscle testing can also be helpful in establishing a dose. World Organics and Biotics Research sell bottles of very low potency potassium iodide.

Please don’t hesitate to email me with any questions you might have about how to start the Vitamin K program, or Maria if you have questions about the experiences of her children or other parents with the LOD. There is Yahoo group for the protocol at health.groups.yahoo.com/group/VitaminK/.

One thing that must be noted is that the K protocol should NOT be used without a doctor’s supervision or being on the K list if your child has seizure issues. The liberated calcium can actually trigger seizures. However, once the calcium regulation is in place, and excess calcium is dealt with, seizures often decrease.

One thing that is NOT mentioned in the protocol attached document specifically, but has been mentioned on the vitamin K list, is just how low to supplement the K2. The document says to adjust an adult dose of 15 mg 3 times a day (for a 150 pound person) and work up to that. This works out *78* drops of K2. But K2 is very powerful, and Catherine recommends working up slowly to 5 drops 3 times a day, but even that may be excessive. Maria said that many kids and her own who had oxalate problems had a couple weeks of the really bad oxalic acid diarrhea mentioned earlier even at 1 drop three times a day.

I would start with 1 drop per day, slowly working up to 1 drop 3 times a day (diluting the Thorne solution even), and maybe higher than that later on. On the K list, people work up to 4-9 drops a day generally – so a bottle of it lasts a *long* time. Maria or Catherine can tell you more. Here’s an email Maria sent me recently when I asked about the disparity between the 78 drops the K protocol’s recommendation works out to, and what people on the K list are saying:

K2 is powerful and many kids (including my own) suffered horrible oxalic acid diahhrea for two weeks while on only 1 drop 3X a day. So Catherine said to start slower from then on. Catherine’s recommendation to work up to 5 drops 3X a day for kids sounds excessive to me. But she is proving a theory and has to push the upper limits. She also has older/bigger kids and she is using very high amounts of everything with them. (DHA, iodine, etc.) It was the Japanese study which used 45 drops a day for adults but I have to wonder if some of those in the study (Japan) may have already had foods with K1 which converted to K2 in their bodies for them to be able to go up that high without too many issues.

K clears from the body pretty readily, but K2 does not – once the levels come up it takes about 68 hours to start to go down. So after a long while on K2 my family stopped the 3X a day and now we only dose K2 1X a day and my kids are fine.

Please do not post this to the LOD list itself – the issue of LOD versus K Protocol is very politically charged in the DAN! Think Tank right now (ugly “old-fashioned” scientific politics going on). Maria told me that the office of the DAN doc her kids see (Anju Usman in Illinois) doesn’t prescribe LOD anymore because of the problems the kids have encountered with it – exactly the same things you are seeing with your son.

Most DANs don’t know much about the K protocol, which is why it is not recommended (as well as the fact that LOD is on the ‘list’ of DAN-sanctioned treatments, whereas the K Protocol is not (mostly because Susan is on the Think Tank and was “in the right place at the right time”). So you may have to educate your DAN about the K protocol yourself – the K list can help with that. Please email me, Maria, or Catherine (or the K List!) if you have any further questions.

Jim ([email protected])

again, email me directly at [email protected] if you want to talk about this off the site ( i am apparently bad about the private messenger list as i just found a question from feb 2007!!!!) thanks!

[Anonymous]

Jim,

thanks for all the info. I am a member of both groups and are currently trying the vitamin k protocol. it makes ggod senee to me.

I am in not aggremnet with Susan owens and teh LOD. She indeed has a big mouth.

Catherine is helpful and has tried her protocol with her children with positive results.

Thanks again.

leo

[Anonymous]

i was just looking at this older post i had forgotten about.

how did you gals know that you were dealing with an oxalate problem? is this something that is tested, or is it by symptoms?

[Anonymous]

For us, it was identified by an Organic Acids Test performed by Great Plains Laboratory.

We’ve lately been treating both Ben and Paige aggressively for GI yeast overgrowth and we’ve seen massive yeast and oxalate dumping (especially in Paige) since doing so. It’s been astonishing to see what’s coming out in her BMs! I have a friend with a poop blog (OK feel free to laugh, but let’s admit it – a lot of us are obsessed with poop! ). If you dare – and I’m warning you these are photos of POOP – you can see photos of her yeast & oxalate dumping in her BM at: http://gfcfpoop.blogspot.com/

[Anonymous]

we didn’t go so far as great plains yet, but ordered it and it is sitting in my office as we speak until i can convince a doc to sign off on them! for us it was the poop coming out of him in grains-like beach sand. the way i found oxalates at all was by doing a search on my only symptom “grainy stools”! LOL!

so i found great plains info on it first then susan owens research (this is her baby) and then her group trying_low_oxalates. we did low oxalate diet for a month and then transitioned to the k protocol’s group where we learned about the specific carb diet which is more pure and also prescribed for people with mounting intolerances, gut problems like IBS, cystic fibrosis, and Crohn’s. i put him on s. boulardii and acidolphilus via the homemade goat yogurt that SCD prescribes. he is still dumping but it is apparently clearing him up in many ways….the k protocol group in yahoo groups addresses the oxalate problem using the SCD (diet) and a program of supplementation including vitamin k2 which escorts the calcium to the right places in order to ensure gut health. they have lots of docs in their files in that group that address the science of the oxalates and the unbelievable damage/function they have to encapsulate the body’s toxic material. the low oxalate group and the k protocol group are at odds over this oxalate issue and so it seems a good idea for you to read both approaches to see which would be the best fit if it becomes something you want to try…yahoo groups are named: #1 vitamink #2 trying_low_oxalates

Sheri, i am still reeling from the poop blog! i could have made one myself many times over!

amanda 😉

[Anonymous]

Sheri, thanks for sharing the link to the blog. The first 2 pics are what Landen’s green runny poo has been like the last 8ish days. I keep giving him the ProBio Gold probiotic from Kirkman labs and it seems to be improving.

[Anonymous]

Jill – those 2 photos are Paige’s.

I really hope the Pro-Bio Gold helps – it’s such a great multi-strain probiotic. We rotate between it and Ther-Biotic Infant Formula probiotic by Klaire Labs for Paige. We do about a month or so of one, then switch to the other to keep introducing multiple strains of good bacteria.

Amanda – we see lots of “beach sand” poop around here too! How has the SCD diet been going? It sounds like a lot of kids have really had good GI improvement on it. We’re almost there with Ben, but haven’t pulled out potato yet. I’m certainly keeping it in mind… How have you liked the s. boulardii? I’ve been considering that one too.

MFPIx22008-05-26 22:17:25

[Anonymous]

We love the SCD!!! THe whole family is on it and none of us has ever felt this well and energized. I just started the S. Boulardii and so far so good…hard poop coming out along with soft poop which in GI world is a miracle!!! Got our at http://www.giprohealth.com which is a site for lots of great stuff that is considered SCD legal. I have a lot of info on the diet if anyone wants it. Just post your email address and I’ll share my little MS word booklet on it with recipies and such. It’s kind of refreshing to feel hopeful about my children’s tummies for once! 🙂 amanda

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